Hi, I’m Pat Crosscombe, Founder and CEO of BoardSpace. You’re listening to my podcast, the Sidelight: a series that explores the knowledge, history, and a little bit of the magic behind condo and not-for-profit boards.

Hi, it’s Pat. I’m still at the CCC number one 50th anniversary celebration, and I have now caught up with Scott Hill, who is actually the property manager for this wonderful condominium, and also has—I don’t know if it’s a sideline or a mainline or a half line—work with his own security business.

Here is what we talked about.

1. 1. Why Horizon House works
   2. Beating apathy
   3. Quorum through community
   4. Real debate, not rubber stamps
   5. Directors vs. managers
   6. “Brain & muscle” analogy
   7. Trust, transparency, escalation
   8. Avoiding micromanagement
   9. Governance every meeting
   10. Quick “huddles,” no festering
   11. Apollo processes in practice
   12. Onboarding new directors
   13. Licensing in Ontario
   14. Talent crunch risk
   15. Best-interest test
   16. People-first management
   17. Security as a passion
   18. Advice for new managers

Listen to the podcast or read the transcript.

Scott: I think of it more as a passion. Security has always been a passion of mine, so I enjoy the condominiums, and I’ve been managing condominiums for the last 20 years, and the security just seemed to naturally flow into an interesting sideline. And as they say, idle hands get into trouble. So the more work I keep doing, the less trouble I get in.

Pat: And Scott and I have been following each other on social media, but never actually met face-to-face. So this is a great opportunity to meet you in person because you look just like you do on social media.

Scott: Without the 30 pounds being added by the cameras. But I do appreciate it. I do follow a lot of your things and very much enjoy the content that you put. So it is my pleasure to actually get the chance to sit down.

Pat: So let’s dig into this condominium. From your perspective as a manager and a security expert, why is this condominium good? Why does it work?

Scott: I think one of the pitfalls that I’ve seen in condominium management—and it’s a deadly enemy—is apathy. It’s when people in the condominiums, the owners… it’s not a challenge to have an AGM; it’s a challenge to get quorum to hold the AGM. And we don’t have that at this condominium. I believe you said you spoke to Tony already, and his board members, all five of them, are just as passionate and they all bring a different skillset without the politics that sometimes gets tied into boards or board members.

Scott: I think the biggest strength that this condominium has—and I’ve been here as their property manager for seven years now, six years now, and I’ve seen this right from the get-go—is they’re very, very involved in the operation of it, but they don’t micromanage. They know the line, and we have that working relationship because there’s a real level of respect between us, and they recognize that they have to rely on expert opinions sometimes. And they will go hands-off and say, “Okay, that’s the right thing.”

Scott: But there’s never any trouble getting a decision. There’s never any trouble getting together. No decision is ever rubber-stamped. It is discussed—I’ll probably get in trouble for saying this—ad nauseam, and then we vote, and sometimes it’s not unanimous. It’s not like some condominiums where you hear that every decision’s always unanimous, which means I think people are just throwing their hands up in the air and saying, “Is the meeting over yet?” So here we have good, fruitful meetings, but I think their biggest strength is the community inside the condominium. And that starts with the board members. They really work on developing it.

Scott: I’ve been with Apollo, as I said, for 20 years. Right now, I bring in the processes—the professional processes that Apollo has—and we implement it into their comfort level. So I think—sorry that was a long answer—but that’s what I’ve seen up to this point.

Pat: So I want to go back to one thing you just said, and that’s about the micromanaging. I hear this a lot. How does a board sort of know when they’ve stepped over the line, and how do you, as a property manager, make sure they know what that line is between their proper role and micromanaging—or as I call it, overmanaging? If they don’t know, how do they come to that understanding that this is your job and this is the directors’ job?

Scott: It’s an interesting point and a great question because it’s something you’ll run into. And sometimes it’s inadvertent—they don’t mean to do it—but they care so much about the condominium. And that’s when the communication between the board members and the property manager is critical. We have processes in place that people can escalate if things aren’t getting answered. But it’s quite often, if that level of trust is there, you can, right at the beginning, say, “Guys…” And Tony and I have had this discussion many times—not that he’s a micromanager—but he’ll ask, “Should I be hands-off right now?” And I’ll say, “I will come back to you when I need the next decision.”

Scott: I compare it like this: the board of directors is the brain; we’re the muscle. You tell the body what to do, and then the body goes out and does it, and comes back when we need another decision. So a lot of it is a certain level of trust that has to exist between the property manager and the board members. If you have that level of trust and that transparency, you can say, “This is my job. You have to let me move things forward.” If you’re looking over my shoulder every step of the way, it’s going to slow down. That’s going to frustrate the owners, it’s going to frustrate everybody, and it makes it not enjoyable.

Scott: So the first step is just having that conversation. Governance is such a huge thing that you talk about it every meeting. Sometimes you don’t identify it as such; you don’t say, “We’re talking governance right now,” but you are talking about it. And it does translate into the minutes—that the proper management process is critical. If you have too many cooks in the kitchen, everything takes so much longer, and this industry’s slow. It’s not good, especially with the changes.

Pat: It is definitely not. And understanding everyone’s respective roles is so important. I know on my own condo board, we have definitely been at overmanaging many, many times.

Scott: Sorry. But I think that sometimes—without knowing the background—board members coming into a property feel that they need to do that overmanagement. My opening with a new board is usually: I will earn your trust. I will come in, and at the first six months—the honeymoon stage—we’re going to work very closely together. But then, as you start to trust me, you’ve got to start to let go of this stuff. People say it all the time: directors direct, managers manage. We will find our way to that point together.

Pat: What advice would you have for directors, from the basis of your 20 years of experience and seven years working with a great board here at the Horizon? New directors come along—how do you get them educated and informed so that they respect your boundaries?

Scott: In a lot of ways, I’m helped by the fact that terms are usually staggered. So a new board member is usually coming in with an existing body that works, and they kind of see the dynamic of how the board meetings run. But I think what I just said is how you introduce it. I speak to a lot of people at condominiums who are considering running for the board of directors, and they want to know what they’re getting into. That’s always a pitfall, because you don’t want to scare them off. You want them to—because it is not easy to find people that are passionate and will put in the time. Life moves so fast, so to find people who will actually invest the proper amount of time into meetings—when you see them, you hang on to them.

Scott: So you don’t want to scare them, but you also don’t want to sell them a false bill of goods. The important thing is to say, “We’re going to work together and move things forward, but you make the decisions; we implement the decisions.” Those are our respective roles. And if anything goes off base, we huddle up and we come back—we don’t wait, we don’t let it grow, we don’t let it fester. We huddle back up, figure out what went wrong. At Horizon House, we did this a lot at the beginning—impromptu meetings at the Apollo office. We’d sit around, even with senior team members, and say, “Okay, these things are going off base. We’ve got to manage the expectations of the owners and make sure we’re all pulling in the same direction, because it’s not a tug-of-war; it’s a tractor pull.”

Pat: So with the recent changes in Ontario with the licensing of property managers—what are your thoughts on that, and how are you seeing it play out? It’s now, what, about two years in?

Scott: Yeah, two years in November. I was lucky—I had my RCM back in 2012. I’m the type who tries to go to the expert level and get all the information. When I saw that was available, I did the RCM and I challenged all the exams with my experience in condominium management. So I had it before they made the changes.

Scott: I do applaud the licensing because I think it’s important. Over the years I’ve seen some great managers, but I’ve also seen some people—and they’ve told me flat out—it’s a stepping stone: “I am doing this until something opens up in my field, something opens up in the government, my police application comes through.” I’ve heard all that—it’s a place to tread water. But the condominiums aren’t well served by that. They could be good managers, but they’re not there for the long term. I’m in for life. I have two daughters in university; I’m here for a long time. I can’t see myself ever doing anything else. I enjoy it. I enjoy the people I work with. But not everybody feels that way.

Scott: The licensing kind of makes people think long term. I think the future is going to see a bit of a brain drain. I’ve written numerous articles on it—that we’re going to hit the perfect storm when the cutoff time comes and you absolutely have to have the license. I think a lot of people—and I can name three or four off the top of my head—are saying, “When that happens, I’m retiring. When that happens, I’m going to work at Tim Hortons, I’m going to go work at Walmart,” because the bar is too high.

Scott: It’s like anything: where you are, you always feel like you work the hardest. Property managers will tell you we work dusk till dawn every day—and a lot of days you do—but the bar is continually being set higher and higher, and the reward has to be equal to that. Condominiums are budget-driven; their revenue only comes from one source. Can you continually escalate to meet the fees required to have the licensing, to have the ACMO 2000 certification? I think there’s going to be a time where things have to be reevaluated, and there’s going to be a brain drain in our industry. I see that happening—licensed managers will be harder to get ahold of, and you’re going to have a lot of people working with the junior license under a bigger portfolio.

Pat: Well, I don’t want to keep you from the celebration, so I want to wrap it up. What would you say to a new manager, or somebody who’s considering becoming a property manager, to encourage them to jump into the industry?

Scott: I would say that from a human-resources point of view, it is a very rewarding industry when you work with good people, like we do at Horizon House—and obviously I’m saying that because they’re going to listen. But when you work with that, there’s always professionalism, but there’s also a friendship that’s garnered on respect. I consider myself a bit of a people person, and I find that’s a very rewarding aspect of the business.

Scott: My wife just came into the condominium business a year ago, and we work together now. Before, she was working in the public sector, and she moved over into condominiums. She says it’s been an eye-opener, but she enjoys it so much she can’t see herself doing anything else. She’s down there—more people are hugging her at the party than me! They don’t know who I am, but they’re walking over and giving her a hug.

Scott: So I’d say it’s very rewarding, but you need to make sure you are acting in the best interest of the condominium. There’s a tendency—or the ability—to fall off the track, and you always have to ask the core question: “Is this decision in the best interest of the condominium?” Not for yourself, not for the board of directors—you are representing the building. So when, as a property manager, you’re making that recommendation, that’s the first question you ask. Like a corporation asking, “Does this follow our mission statement?” Same thing: does it serve the condominium the proper way? If the answer is yes, you make the recommendation.

Scott: I would also say that following great social media people like yourself is key, because you stay aware of situations—you’re more informed. Nobody wants to hear from a property manager, “Oh, did that happen? A building burnt down beside us? I didn’t know that.” You want to keep informed and educated—not just formal education, but gathering facts from all things. There is some homework involved, but it’s well worth it because you want to be seen as a professional.

Pat: Thanks, Scott. It was great to meet you face to face.

Scott: The pleasure was mine. It was great to engage with you in a conversation about the pearls of wisdom that are applicable to condos.

Pat: Well, I don’t know—maybe there’s one pearl in there, I hope.

Scott: Well, there were definitely many pearls, so thanks again.

Pat: Thank you.

Scott: My pleasure.

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